31.3.06

Retitled: Seeking Opinions and Assurances that I Haven't Gone Off Into Left Field Somewhere

I feel:: contemplative
What song is on a loop in my head right now:: Rammstein~Heirate Mich

I decided to rejoin a Christian message board that I've been absent from for awhile. Not their fault. Mine, totally. I was going through a period where I didn't have an ounce of patience and I thought it would be better for me not to vent my anger there, but instead, vent it here. (Aren't y'all glad? hehe) Anyway, today I posted a reply to a thread that asked the question: Should Women Be In Ministry? Here's what I wrote. You guys tell me what you think and whether or not I'm making sense. I realize it's really long, but so are most of my posts, so y'all should be used to that by now. :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just a little something I was thinking about while reading this thread. Preacherman777 quoted this Scripture:
1Ti 2:13 After all, Adam was formed first, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 Besides that, Adam was not deceived. It was the woman who was deceived and sinned. (italics mine)


When I read that, I remembered reading somewhere that the "Fall of Man" was referred to as the "Sin of Adam" because it was Eve who was deceived, but when Adam found her fallen, he had to make a choice between doing what he knew was wrong (i.e. eating the fruit) and choosing to follow his wife's actions or choosing instead to do what he knew God wanted. Thinking on this, I searched and found this Scripture:
Rom 5:14 Yet, death ruled from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way Adam did when he disobeyed. Adam is an image of the one who would come. (italics mine)

I'm not saying that Eve didn't sin. She did, but so did Adam and to suggest that the reason women shouldn't pastor because Eve was a sinner sort of hits me the wrong way. They both sinned.
Gen 3:16 He said to the woman, "I will increase your pain and your labor when you give birth to children. Yet, you will long for your husband, and he will rule you."
Gen 3:17 Then he said to the man, "You listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree, although I commanded you, 'You must never eat its fruit.' The ground is cursed because of you. Through hard work you will eat food that comes from it every day of your life.
Gen 3:18 The ground will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat wild plants.
Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your brow, you will produce food to eat until you return to the ground, because you were taken from it. You are dust, and you will return to dust."


Even when God confronted them about it, knowing that He knows everything, they still couldn't own up to what they did. Adam blamed his wife, Eve, and Eve blamed the serpent.
Gen 3:7 Then their eyes were opened, and they both realized that they were naked. They sewed fig leaves together and made clothes for themselves.
Gen 3:8 In the cool of the evening, the man and his wife heard the LORD God walking around in the garden. So they hid from the LORD God among the trees in the garden.
Gen 3:9 The LORD God called to the man and asked him, "Where are you?"
Gen 3:10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden. I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid."
Gen 3:11 God asked, "Who told you that you were naked? Did you eat fruit from the tree I commanded you not to eat from?"
Gen 3:12 The man answered, "That woman, the one you gave me, gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
Gen 3:13 Then the LORD God asked the woman, "What have you done?" "The snake deceived me, and I ate," the woman answered.


Paul does say in 1 Timothy 2:12 that he would not allow a woman to have authority over a man,but he also said some other things. Notice this:
1Ti 2:11 A woman must learn in silence, in keeping with her position.
1Ti 2:12 I don't allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. Instead, she should be quiet. (italics mine)


Now, what I'm wondering is this: If we are to believe what Paul says here: "I don't allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man" and apply it to our lives today, should we not apply the other things also? To those who say that women should be in ministry, but should not preach, how do you reconcile this? It seems like a contradiction to me to say that women can't preach, but can be in ministry. It also seems to me that if a person is going to go by the letter of the bible, then all the letters should be followed. Not just some of them. It is my understanding and what I've been taught that you can't decide which part of the bible to believe and apply and which you don't like and don't want to apply.

Don't get me wrong, here, I fully support women in ministry. I've been in ministry for a long time myself. And what about these verses in Colossians?
Col 3:10 and you've become a new person. This new person is continually renewed in knowledge to be like its Creator.
Col 3:11 Where this happens, there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, uncivilized person, slave, or free person. Instead, Christ is everything and in everything.


A few verses down, there is also this:
Col 3:18 Wives, place yourselves under your husbands' authority. This is appropriate behavior for the Lord's people.
Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives, and don't be harsh with them.
Also in Ephesians:
Eph 5:21 Place yourselves under each other's authority out of respect for Christ. (italics mine)
Eph 5:22 Wives, place yourselves under your husbands' authority as you have placed yourselves under the Lord's authority.
Eph 5:23 The husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church. It is his body, and he is its Savior.
Eph 5:24 As the church is under Christ's authority, so wives are under their husbands' authority in everything.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave his life for it. (italics mine)


Wives clearly are meant to submit themselves to their husbands and their husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for it. Wives and husbands are both to be submitted to God and to serve each other. After all, Christ did not come to be served, but to serve.
Mat 20:27 Whoever wants to be most important among you will be your slave.
Mat 20:28 It's the same way with the Son of Man. He didn't come so that others could serve him. He came to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many people."



What I'm wondering at this moment is whether or not God meant for there to be a difference between a woman submitting herself to her husband, which I agree is the Godly thing to do, and submitting herself to all men, which I think can easily be construed from Scripture but which I also believe is in error. Especially considering the verses I just posted from Colossians 3.

It is my understanding that we all must submit ourselves to Christ and in Christ, there is no difference. I mean, when eternity comes and our souls are freed from these earthly shells and we have our resurrected bodies, will there be man and woman? Or will we just all be children of God? I just have these last verses to post regarding the questions I just asked and then I'll cease. For now, anyway.

Mat 22:23 On that day some Sadducees, who say that people will never come back to life, came to Jesus. They asked him,
Mat 22:24 "Teacher, Moses said, 'If a man dies childless, his brother should marry his widow and have children for his brother.'
Mat 22:25 There were seven brothers among us. The first married and died. Since he had no children, he left his widow to his brother.
Mat 22:26 The second brother also died, as well as the third, and the rest of the seven brothers.
Mat 22:27 At last the woman died.
Mat 22:28 Now, when the dead come back to life, whose wife will she be? All seven brothers had been married to her."
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered, "You're mistaken because you don't know the Scriptures or God's power.
Mat 22:30 When people come back to life, they don't marry. Rather, they are like the angels in heaven.
(italics mine)

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